Shawn FitzGerald [00:00:01]:
Hello, and welcome to Intentional Change, the podcast for business owners and leaders who want to navigate growth, technology, and transformation, not by accident, but with intention. I'm your host, Sean Fitzgerald. With my co host, Joshua McNary, we explore practical ideas and share insights to help lead you through change with clarity and confidence. Be sure to follow, share, and subscribe so you don't miss the next insight that could change how you think, lead, or grow your business. Is there something holding back the performance of your business and you just can't put your finger on it, but something just feels off? Like, the energy in the room isn't quite right with your team, or your team isn't stepping up like you hoped they would. Projects are getting done, but the business isn't moving forward the way you know it should? And then you think, what if the real issue is with one of your leaders? Or worse, what if it's your leadership? That's a hard one to sit with. So today, we're going to get into what leadership should look like in your organization, and how you can cultivate a culture where the next generation of leaders can step forward and thrive. Today, I'm joined by Mike Wagner from White Rabbit Group. Mike has spent years helping organizations navigate those exact questions, guiding teams through the messy human side of leadership, and helping businesses rediscover clarity, ownership, and momentum. Mike, welcome to Intentional Change.
Mike Wagner [00:01:24]:
Great to be here and, looking forward to another lively conversation.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:01:28]:
Yes. We always have lively conversations. That's for sure. How did you get into helping companies with leadership issues and some of the things that you do? Tell me a little bit about that.
Mike Wagner [00:01:38]:
A couple of things happened. One is that, we would do engagements where we're helping build organizational brands. So we would do those engagements, and what would happen is, typically, we would have clients that couldn't execute on what we asked them to do to actually build an intentional organizational brand that delivered a consistent customer experience. They just couldn't do it. And what would happen is that people would sometimes lose their jobs, get fired. We almost always create a leadership crisis. So that said to us, something must be wrong with leadership. So so what are we gonna do about that? And then at the same time, we had two clients that were growing rapidly at around 30% a year. The big threat to their success was their ability to avoid attrition, keeping people, and being able to execute on very demanding projects because the growth meant they were working with clients that were much more demanding than they had had in the past. And so they gave us opportunities to interview everybody, learn a lot about what's happening. We did our own research, and we ran pilot programs. And so we kinda kitchen tested everything we did, and, it was just a great opportunity. We're very thankful for that. So that's that's how we really got into, looking at leadership and making it our our focus.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:02:59]:
If you have problems as your business owner and you're starting to look for the root causes, what are some of those signs that the cause is leadership versus something else, employees or processes?
Mike Wagner [00:03:11]:
The clients that we served have they had deep technical expertise, and so that wasn't a problem. Actually, it was interesting. Some of the salespeople approached us first, and they had actually kind of, acquired clients that they were calling whales. And they said, we're not convinced that our our team can actually execute on what we just sold. And so there was that whole execution issue that was arising. And, at the same time, there was a sense that, the process and technology was there, but that there wasn't always a sense of ownership. So we started using, like, a metaphor. Are we is this a company of renters or owners? And, that really, really resonated, because you've gotta be an owner, especially when you're in a fast growing company where the demands are high. Renters, they just call the landlord and say it's your problem, not my problem. Sure. And, yeah. So that's another indication that things were, needed to take a fresh look at leadership.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:04:13]:
What do you think the mindset is of business leaders? Before they're working with you, where do they start before they, come to you with issues?
Mike Wagner [00:04:22]:
They they start kind of they think think of leadership as managing only the work, and not leading the people, and so that distinction is, maybe acknowledged, but they wouldn't really dig into really what does it mean to lead people. So they tend to think of leadership as a position and not a craft or a practice that you can get good at, so they throw people into leadership. So that's part of the mindset. The other thing is is that we pay people, so they should do what we ask them to do. So it's transactional, and that transactional piece, I think, is is also a mindset that is somewhat limited, especially especially as you look at today's workforce. The transaction is not not enough to really get people's buy in and followership.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:05:11]:
How does a leader learn to be a leader without crashing and burning?
Mike Wagner [00:05:17]:
One of the things that that people are starting to look at is that they're looking at retention rates, and they're bringing it down all the way to the individual leaders. So they they might keep their retention rates, at a high level for the entire company, but they're looking at each individual leader and what is this individual leader's retention rate. Because if people are you're burning through people and there's a trail of bodies, that's costing the company a lot, and so that's that's unacceptable. I think back to your original question, where do you start, It's often the case that when we're doing our training and coaching and installing our model, people are saying, I've never had a map of how to lead. I've never had intentional practices that I could learn. So it's never really been treated as a craft, and so it's fresh for them. They just have never done anything more than this is your team. Now lead them and, you know, get to the outcomes and the numbers we want.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:06:13]:
What do you think
Mike Wagner [00:06:13]:
a good leader is? A great question. Not easy to answer exactly, but the measure of a good leader is their ability to, I think, do three big things. One is to fulfill the mission, the outcome, or the project that's in front of me. So we hire leaders to manage people because we wanna get to outcomes. So that never goes away, and and I think that's the part that people understand really well. But the second thing is hit the outcome, get to the measurable and result that you wanted, but also take care of your people. That's the measure of where can this person actually create followers, or do they simply have compliance from people? And then the last is probably the most important, especially for scalability and growth. Can you make more leaders? Can you actually lead in such a way people want to grow into leadership rather than run away from it? And that's a big trend right now is that I'm hearing reports from HR leaders and others that the young workforce is skeptical of even taking a leadership role. So when offered, they said, no. I just wanna be an individual contributor. I I don't wanna step into this.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:07:24]:
And to be clear, when
Mike Wagner [00:07:25]:
you say they're skeptical, what is it specifically? So the reason they're skeptical is they're watching, and what they see causes them to hesitate. So what do they see? Well, they see things like, oh, my leader is going through calendar chaos. They are booked in meeting after meeting after meeting after meeting, back to back to back. Sometimes they're double booked. They're saying that's crazy. They look at their leaders, and they can see the stress. I mean, it's not hidden. They can see the stress of many of their leaders and how it's been, you know, detrimental to them in various ways, And they they look at that, and they go, oh, and this guy's pulled a hundred different directions. You know, he's got one department saying this and another department saying that. And so they're they're looking at that and going, if that's what leadership is, you know, why would out. Why would I want it? It's, it's the sort of thing you say, you know, I'd just rather do my job and go home. And so that's what I think is creating that that skepticism about stepping into a leadership role.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:08:26]:
And I know it's it's kind of a cliche. Are are good leaders born or good leaders created? And from what I was hearing from you, the new employees that could be leaders are really learning. They're being created, and they're being created from a really kind of dysfunctional or toxic environment.
Mike Wagner [00:08:46]:
Yeah. We a lot of the testimonies I hear, and I've worked with around 400 leaders in the last four or five years, is I put off being a leader for a long, long time because I saw what leadership was like inside my company. I was offered positions. I was offered teams and that. I'm so I'm not gonna do that. And the flip side is that, if you treat leadership not as a position but as a practice, you can get better at it. You can grow, and so it's a matter of, being given some basic processes to work on and get better over on time. We say being a leader is like, is a practice, and it's like riding a bike or learning a language or playing a musical instrument. When you start, you're awful. If you just keep doing it, working it over and over again, over time, people get better.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:09:33]:
Can a good leader become bad and a bad leader become good? What are those skill sets or characteristics that you think are most commonly lacking in leaders?
Mike Wagner [00:09:43]:
That that's a great question. And, people who study these things so if you look at the literature, you'll say, oh, wow. A good supervisor manager. Here are 20 things they should be able to do. Here are 30 things they should be able to do. And to me, that's a nonstarter because now you've added complexity to the the whole process, and it's very hard. So you're you're saying that would you throw everything at somebody that's trying to learn a musical instrument at the very beginning? No. Of course not. No. You you show them, you know, the basics, and you let them grow into it. So to your point, the foundational things that that we've recognized as the true foundational practices that never go away, they're both where you begin, but they're also the thing that you never leave and you always get better at. One is how to have effective one on one conversations that build relational capital with people. And so it's it's moving into connection, and that's that's really crucial. The second thing is they have to get really, really good and comfortable at giving people feedback and receiving feedback from their direct reports. So a two way feedback process is absolutely crucial, and you never grow out of that. You need that. And, frankly, it's one of my fun things to do when I'm just onboarding somebody or just talking to them over lunch. I always ask, hey. Do you have anybody on your team that you know needs feedback? And they go, oh, yeah. Of course. And then I say, how long have you known? Oh, probably six weeks, maybe longer.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:11:13]:
So why don't people give feedback? I mean, we I I mean, I've been in in business and training for such a long time, and and we all talk about the importance of feedback. And and everyone kinda gives it lip service, but no one ever does it. Why don't they do it?
Mike Wagner [00:11:28]:
Well, the simple answer, the direct answer is this. They instinctively know they do not have enough relational capital, to actually give people a tough bit of feedback to ensure that the feedback will simply be about making the work better and not a personal attack. And so they give themselves excuses. Oh, man. I I'm waiting for the right time
Shawn FitzGerald [00:11:52]:
or Right. We've been never the right time.
Mike Wagner [00:11:54]:
Never the right time. Or we've been really, really busy right now, but, you know, we'll slow down, and then I'll give him some feedback. Or, this person's really mission critical. I'm afraid they'll just go off and leave. And, I mean, they they give themselves all kinds of deflected reasons for doing it. But the real reason is is that they don't have enough relational capital in the bank to actually give people the truth.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:12:15]:
You know, I I I could remember I was working at one of my companies, and the only time we'd ever get feedback was on our review if we even had that. So that was maybe twice a year, but more likely once a year. So no matter what I did, I never heard of whether it was good, bad, or otherwise until a year or so later when I mean, I know that sometimes they call that sandbagging, where you load up all the things that your employee did and you dump it on them when one, they can't go and fix it or do anything about it and two, they don't really have any time to learn or perfect it or improve and oftentimes their raise or their employment hangs in the balance. And it and I and I always found that to be such a ridiculous time. I I I hate reviews for that reason.
Mike Wagner [00:12:59]:
No. You're you're really on to it. It's it's it's silly in some ways and very, you know, just counterintuitive if you think about it. In sports, we would never do that. We would say, you know, your jump shot, all season, it's been awful.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:13:15]:
Right.
Mike Wagner [00:13:15]:
But we but we waited till the end of the season to tell you about it. Why didn't you just pull me off during time out and let me know Yes. So I could work on it? Yes. So that's what we do. And so it was very interesting. I was I was working with about 20 IT leaders, and, and I was teaching them feedback. So we give them a basic feedback model, and so they learn it's a practice. And so you just learn how to do it, and you're uncomfortable at first, and then you get good at it and just normal.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:13:42]:
It's surprising to me when I when I've worked with some of my ag clients that the leaders aren't necessarily really leaders. They're just the experts in their field, like content experts. It kind of floors me that the owners equates the two and thinks, if you're the most knowledgeable, then you must be able to lead us. And I have rarely found that to be the best case.
Mike Wagner [00:14:05]:
Well, it's because they don't see the distinction between managing the work and leading the people. They don't have a category of leading people. They just have an expert management of the work. That's that's a limiter for them. They just don't have an extra category that's that's impoverishing their whole approach.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:14:21]:
One of the things that I have run into in my own businesses and leading people is that little voice in my head saying, don't say anything because you're micromanaging. You're giving too much information or you're saying the things that you shouldn't and you're focused on the wrong things. What do you say to someone who's trying to figure out when do I give the feedback and step in, but not at the point where it's gonna be overly micromanaging and telling these people that you've hired that are good at certain things to let them do their thing.
Mike Wagner [00:14:51]:
Oh, it it comes up all the time. Yeah. I think it's in part, it's because we're talking about two way feedback. So this is very uncomfortable for direct reports reporting to a supervisor or manager. So because it's both directions, it doesn't feel like micromanagement. The other piece of it is that there are micromanagers, the people that are just, like, on you all the time, but that's not really what I'd call feedback. That's just anxiety creating, you know, inspection of the work. And and and in part, we we we see that, with this approach to, you know, return to work focus. I talk to leaders and they're like, how do I know they're working if they're not here? And, I think it's because they didn't know they were working when they were there.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:15:38]:
Right. And that's a very common thing. I hear that more since COVID, since we were working remotely, working from our home, and we couldn't see the person sitting at their desk. So some people just assume your employees are just playing video games or out on the beach or doing anything but what they should be doing.
Mike Wagner [00:15:55]:
And they could be. But, a great leader and a great connection, remember, the measurements are, hey. Get the work done, take care of your people, and make more leaders. Those are metrics that can be, quantified. By the way, we we we missed, so you asked what are the practices, a quality one on one where you build relational capital, give and receive feedback. Third is equipping people when there's misses in their skill sets. These are things that you learn with working with people. You give them enough feedback, and you have to be ready to say, yeah. You know, that you're a technical expert, and you did this presentation for the sales team, and you were, like, scraping the Milky Way. No one understood anything you were saying. You your skill set that you need to work on is how to take technical information and make it accessible to laypeople. So this the an example of equipping people is learning how to do that, and there are basic processes that you can learn how to do that. In this case, we had them actually look at, videos on how to give a TED Talk, and then they would practice, and they got better. Duh. And, you know, we didn't have to say you can't talk to salespeople anymore because no one understands you. We just got you better, and that was their leader helping them through that equipping process. Then the last is how to intentionally make more leaders, which is the delegation process. So deep relational commitment through one on ones, feedback, equipping people, and when it makes sense, delegation so you can make more leaders. Those are the four foundational principles. The other thing that happens, Sean, is that people come to the workplace never having had a leader who built deep relational capital with them. Or if they did, it was the exception, not their norm. So some of these things are are are really the intentional change that we've been talking about. It's it really is truly intentional change, not at the the organizational strategic level, but at the personal level. And and one of the things that we tell clients is that, you know, what what you have to understand is that change in an organization is first personal and relational before it's organizational and strategic.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:18:07]:
Tell me a little bit about how you go about starting to change. Are we talking days, weeks, months? Is this a year long process? So our listeners can go, should I take this journey, or am I ready to take this journey, or is there some other things I need to do in order to get prepared?
Mike Wagner [00:18:23]:
That's a great question. One of the things that really, really helped us, Sean, was that, we did all this piloting. And what we learned was, it has to be very simple. Alright? So if whatever we're gonna introduce, we don't wanna add complexity to the work of these professionals who already have a lot of complexity. So we wanna make it simple. We wanted to make it, behavioral. So it's not about, information. It's it's about actually seeing you do something. So it's very much about formation, not information. And, we wanted to make it reproducible so you had a shared model that you could teach other people. I've taught people in sixty seconds how to do the feedback model, and they can go do it that afternoon in a one on one.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:19:08]:
So what do you do after that? Because learning it in one day, practicing it, leaving at the end of the day feeling like you've mastered or you've improved and you're more intentional about what you're doing. And what about tomorrow? What about next week? What about next month?
Mike Wagner [00:19:21]:
So what we do is typically we'll identify a champion inside the company. That person will be the the person who really has an enthusiasm for the practices that we just talked about. And so they're the ones that I set up for success as being the on-site coach. One company, we had five champions because it it took that many to cover their their employee group.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:19:42]:
So when you get that many champions, do you ever find there's any competition? Or how do you keep them from one leadership style taking over another? Or how do you help those champions all kind of become cohesive?
Mike Wagner [00:19:56]:
What happens is that it becomes more of what I call a community of practice. So it's it's more like a a bunch of coaches getting together, volleyball coaches, softball coaches, football coaches, and saying, you know, what are you learning? How are you how are you approaching it? So they are all we create this pure learning environment, which I've done for many, many years. And a pure learning environment is great because it's not about being the smartest person in the room. It's usually just about the person who who has maybe a little insight in terms of a particular need, and you share with them, here's how I've approached this. Here's what I tried. It didn't work. Don't do that.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:20:34]:
What are some of the positive impacts that you have seen in businesses that get their leadership program rolling forward properly?
Mike Wagner [00:20:43]:
I think perhaps one of the forms of emphasis is that, this is how we are going to do it. So that usually comes from the top down. So lots of times, people think I'm gonna hire a trainer or leadership company or something like that to fix those people over there in inventory or fix those people over there on the help desk or whatever it might be. And, that usually doesn't work well. But if the senior leadership is absolutely committed, to these minimal practices and said this is just our norm, that really is what advances and makes success likely for an engagement. I've got one leader, for example. She's the c CEO of a large company. First of all, she says, I will not if I if I'm hiring you, you have to agree to have regular one on ones, nonnegotiable. The other thing that she does is that when she addresses the entire company, like, in their town halls and things like that, she always includes a story about one of the four practices that affected her. You know, one of the great ones was that, she got feedback from her financial officer that's told her, you we had this policy that says we don't have laptops open during staff meetings, and you had your laptop open the whole time. Well, I was just taking notes. I said, boss, no. And so she tells the whole organization that. Look. I'm the CEO, and anybody can give me feedback too. That's how it's working. So she's she's modeling it, and I think that top leadership that will model it and commit to it guarantees likelihood of really installing
Shawn FitzGerald [00:22:29]:
a new leadership culture. I'm wondering if the person listening to this might not be the best person to champion this. They might be able to get it started. Who in the company would be best to get on board with this so that it could be put on their plate to make this the best success?
Mike Wagner [00:22:47]:
Oh, yeah. My experience okay. So we've been doing it for a while now. My experience would say that the answer is depends. I have seen a variety of approaches. One is I have seen what I call the pilot approach. I think this might be something we need. We'll carve off, some budget, and we will do a pilot program, and we'll do, say, 15, leaders and then see how it goes. So that's one way I've seen it happen. I've seen the other, though, where senior leader, so this is what happened to be the senior leader of the organization, and said, we're gonna make this top down. It's gonna be nonnegotiable. I said, you you haven't done anything. Nope. I I I want it. And so we did the top 30 leaders and then worked our way down. I've seen it work both ways. So my motto is start anywhere, go everywhere, and it varies from person to person.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:23:42]:
We covered a lot of stuff today. Leadership's a gigantic subject.
Mike Wagner [00:23:46]:
All we've been talking about really is the space between a leader and a direct report. That's there's much, much more. If you look at people's anticipation of leadership, you know, my three numbers I like to share is, one is $24,500,000,000 a year, and that is the annual spend on leadership training and development in The United States. Comes from a professor at Stanford Business School in California. My next number is 70% of all employees come either partially engaged in the work or actively not engaged in the work. That number comes from Gallup. It comes from their engagement surveys that they've been doing over twenty years. Here's the interesting thing. $24,500,000,000 a year spent. The number that that Gallup has hasn't changed in twenty years. We are not making significant inroads into moving that 70% that are partially engaged. Maybe I'm working, maybe I'm not, or maybe I'm just ordering stuff on Amazon. That number hasn't changed. So something's wrong with about how we've approached. The the last one was actually a fun one, a Harvard survey, Harvard Business School survey. They they ended up concluding that one third of all employees said that they would forego a pay raise if my company would just do one thing.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:25:05]:
What is that?
Mike Wagner [00:25:07]:
Fire my
Shawn FitzGerald [00:25:09]:
boss. And
Mike Wagner [00:25:11]:
that that so those kinds of bits of research led us to say, we're we focused on the space between leaders and direct reports. If we could fix that, we could fix a lot of things. So that's why we started there.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:25:23]:
If you could snap your fingers and instantly change, one thing about how leaders lead, make it go away, make people suddenly better at it, what is that that one thing?
Mike Wagner [00:25:33]:
I want every manager to have regular one on ones and start the one on one with an open ended question. If you do nothing more than meet with somebody, ask them a question, and then listen to them, people get better.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:25:48]:
And that relationship foundation starts. Yes. What is the biggest lesson you've learned or the best piece of advice that you've been given?
Mike Wagner [00:25:57]:
I think the biggest lesson for us was that if we're gonna do training, I have to see you do it. So I can't teach you guitar from a book. I have to see you strum the guitar. I have to see you try to form the chords. And so for us, it's all about observable behaviors where you typically start start being awful and you work your way into better.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:26:22]:
And did you have that I I know I said it was gonna be short questions, but this is intriguing to me. Did you learn that, through White Rabbit Group as you've been working with or something? You had a lot of other experiences in sales and
Mike Wagner [00:26:35]:
I started off because I'm an academic somewhat. I so I like to read, and so I'm reading these books, and I think the answer's on the books. And then I was able to kind of take a step back, and I thought, how is it I really learn skills? And my involvement in sports was really the key. I said, very minimal instruction, go do it. Very minimal instruction, go do it. And so it it led me into just understanding adult learners are are best when they're given a problem, and they go try it. So participatory learning is what it's called, and, that's the best way to learn. That's the best way to learn. So that's that's where I got that.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:27:15]:
The last question I have is, as a leader yourself, what is the one thing that you have that makes you a great leader?
Mike Wagner [00:27:25]:
I would say a deep commitment to asking questions. I actually collect questions.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:27:31]:
And what do you do with them? Scrapbook?
Mike Wagner [00:27:33]:
I I scrapbook questions. I keep questions. For example, when we do training, at some point in the training, I send people 50 questions to to ask in one on ones, and I said, these are just 50. I got, you know, 750 if you want. And I'm just deeply committed to inquiry and questions.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:27:52]:
I love curiosity, and I think that that is sometimes at the root of a lot of the things that we need to do. Yeah.
Mike Wagner [00:28:00]:
My superpower is not knowing.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:28:01]:
Yes. Yes. And the willingness to go and find out. Yeah. Wonderful. Yeah. Mike, thank you. It's been a blast. It's been a blast. I know we could probably go another three hours and, may have you back, and we can dig into some of these other parts of leadership that I think are important for our listeners to to be thinking about or maybe help fill in some of those gaps in their business. So, thanks again. If somebody that was listening wanted to engage with you or connect
Mike Wagner [00:28:30]:
I'm on, like, LinkedIn. So Mike Wagner at LinkedIn would be a good place to just see my social channel there. Our website is whiterabbitgroup.com. So that would be a good place. And, I don't know if anybody uses the phone to actually call people anymore. I've heard that it has happened, but rarely. So, yeah, it's, (515) 371-7711. That's my cell. So I'd be happy to answer them and talk.
Shawn FitzGerald [00:28:59]:
Mike Wagner, White Rabbit Group. It's always a pleasure. Thanks again, sir. Appreciate it. I really hope you enjoyed our conversation today with Mike Wagner. One of the biggest reminders I'm walking away with today is that leadership is a practice, not a position, and that's such a powerful shift in mindset. It's not about waiting to be anointed as the leader or assuming the title makes the person. It's about showing up consistently, learning as you go, and improving over time. And like Mike said, no one starts off being a great leader. But with the right habits, anyone can grow into it. It was especially helpful to gain clarity around the four must haves for effective leaders. Having regular one on ones to build connection, creating a culture of two way feedback, actively equipping people with the skills they need, and delegating with purpose to grow new leaders. These aren't complicated. They're just awful. Thank you. Thank you. And that's where real transformation starts. Feedback, in particular, hits home for me. When leaders create enough relational clarity, feedback becomes not just possible. It becomes a gift. It's a sign that people trust you enough to be real with you. In short, building a true leadership culture can sound like a mountain to climb, but it doesn't have to be. Companies that are serious about this can start small, create a channel for you, have a pilot program, your plantation is fundamental, keep it simple, because your leadership becomes everyone's practice, not just someone's job title. That's when intentional change really starts to happen. Thanks for listening to Intentional Change. If today's conversation sparks something within you, I hope you will apply it with purpose in your own business. I'd love to hear how our Intentional Change podcast is helping you make a difference in your business. To drop me a note, visit ready2levelup.com and click on the let's talk button in the top right. To contact Joshua McNary, visit mcnarymarketing.com. And one last thing, don't forget to subscribe and share the show with others in your network. Help us bring intentional change to every growing business. Until next time, I'm Sean Fitzgerald. Take care.
