Joshua McNary [00:00:02]:
Hello and welcome to Intentional Change, the podcast for business owners and leaders who want to navigate growth, technology and transformation not by accident, but with intention. I'm your host Joshua McNary with my co host Sean Fitzgerald. We explore practical ideas and share insights to help you lead through change with clarity and confidence. Be sure to follow, share and and subscribe so you don't miss the next insight that could change how you think, lead and grow your business. Today on Intentional Change, I'm joined by Michelle Owens, certified EOS implementer, business coach, facilitator, and founding partner of Slingshot25. Michelle works with entrepreneurial leadership teams who are ready to get unstuck and get serious about execution. Through the EOS framework, she helps companies gain clarity, strengthen accountability, and build real traction towards their vision. Her clients aren't just chasing growth, they're building healthy, aligned organizations that can sustain it. With decades of leadership experience and a reputation for asking the tough questions with care, Michelle brings a no nonsense, yet deeply human approach to her work. She believes that structure doesn't stifle creativity, it fuels it. And her work through Slingshot 25 takes that belief even further, helping teams navigate meaningful transformation that actually lasts. Today, we'll explore what it takes to lead a team with clarity, why systems are only part of the solution, and how intentional frameworks like ELS can empower leaders to do their best work. Michelle, welcome to Intentional Change. We're so glad to have you here today.
Michelle Owens [00:02:05]:
Hello, nice to be here, Josh, thanks for having me.
Joshua McNary [00:02:08]:
For those who have not come across your work yet like I have, can you tell us a bit about your background? What led you to EOS and what drew you to coaching leaders and leadership team?
Michelle Owens [00:02:19]:
Well, long path to get here. I will say I'm from Cedar Rapids Market, I always say from a family of doers and entrepreneurs. So definitely it's in my blood. I've. But I've been at a number of companies in between, right? My own companies, big companies, small companies. And I've seen the pendulum shift, right? Too much strategy, structure, too much chaos, not enough accountability. And actually when I went and I led in a company, they were introduced to eos. So as a leadership team, I felt like I'm Goldilocks, right? This is the right porridge. It's just the right amount of framework and structure to guide a business forward and so you can create a rhythm of discipline and accountability. And I saw so much change in our organization. Clarity and better communication and faster decisions. And. And I had the opportunity when Covid hit that the commercial Retail industry kind of took a little bit of a nosedive for a minute. And so I had, you know, when else do you have two months to think about where do you want to take the next step in career? And so with background in training, facilitation, and coaching in a number of shared services spaces like finance and technology and it, general counsel and hr, this is an opportunity for me to help and create this ripple effect in other small businesses like the one that I let in. So it's not, it's not magic, but it creates magic for companies. So I couldn't be happier with, with helping leadership teams, because at the end of the day, the small businesses are the fabric of what, what runs the engine of our economy. So I love it.
Joshua McNary [00:03:58]:
Absolutely. Well, that's great. I want to dig a little bit more into your story. I'm sure there'll be some, some things that have come out in our conversation today from all that great work that you've done over the years. But let's start out by talking about this EOS thing. So, I mean, maybe, I'm guessing those that might be listening to this kind of are familiar with this concept. If you're interested in strategy and being intentional with your business, you may have heard of eos, but this is the entrepreneurial operating system is what that stands for. And it's been popularized by a number of books and things, but that I've read and I know that are foundational to what your practice does. But can you talk about what EOS is in a nutshell, how it's pitched for the layman, and then maybe weave in there, you know, some more details about what spoke to you when you came across this and recognized the opportunity to help others with it.
Michelle Owens [00:04:50]:
Sure. Well, first I will say the book Traction, that is the foundation for EOS. It's founded by Gina Wickman about 20 years ago. But what it is is it's a people operating system. That's the easiest way to describe it. It's a way to systemize and orchestrate all the moving parts of your business to get, to create a rhythm of discipline and accountability, basically, to get more work done, easier, more profitably. It's a lot more fun. So that's the, in layman's terms, the easiest way to describe it. You've got to manage your business anyway. This is just a way to manage that in a holistic way so you don't feel like you're plugging the boat. You know, we don't want to. We don't want to Sink the boat, right? How do we lift all tides rise together? How do we lift the company and all individuals in it? So we're all rowing in the same direction, right. Where are we going as a company, as a leadership team? Are we accountable with discipline to get there and then are we healthy as a team? So really we talk a lot about and it is our three uniques, Vision, traction and healthy. They all work together. How do we elevate our team to create, to create a feeling of ownership so that we're all wanting it as much as the visionary or as much as the entrepreneur that starts, started this thing and is working their tail off to make it a reality. Right. It doesn't have to be so hard to run your business. People are hard enough. Right. But as far as what spoke to me, I think the easiest thing that spoke to me is I just felt like there's an aha, like this is a thing that's out there that works. You know, we've, We've conducted over 28, 000 all day sessions. There's 850 implementers like myself around the world. Then every single time, my companies, this journey with me, it works every time, right? We're gonna make more money, it's gonna be easier, we're gonna have clarity, we're gonna communicate better. So it's just, it's really so much fun to, to watch companies go through that journey just like I did as a leader in a company, right? Just making it easier for everybody.
Joshua McNary [00:06:53]:
So there's this EOS system, you call it the People operating system, which I, I can relate to in my own experience as a business owner. Working with people is the hardest part of it. Sometimes the work can be fun and engaging if it's in your wheelhouse, if it's in your area of expertise. But then helping the team see the vision, which you mentioned the word vision earlier, and then actually being able to move that into reality as you scale, as you add more people, as you add more leaders that are working with you. So maybe talk a little bit more about that part of it and maybe a little bit of the frameworks, like, okay, it's a way to run your business smoother. But okay, what do we, what do we actually mean? Like what are some of the, you know, what are some of the tools that we use to actually accomplish that?
Michelle Owens [00:07:40]:
Right. There's simple tools and practical concepts that, you know, we try to, to dumb it down to the simplest form possible because like you mentioned, the people are the hardest part. Right. And as leaders of small businesses or as you start to scale a business, you're going to going to hit the ceiling and you're either going to flatline, you're going to push through it or you're going to die. And what we don't want is the death part, right? You have put your whole heart and soul into starting this business. And usually at the five year mark, so many companies fail and so typically speaking at about the 10 person, that's generally speaking, the target market starts at that because that's when you're going to hit typically your first ceiling because you can no longer be the bottle washer, the server and the host and grow your business and scale effectively. And so what we start to realize is I am wearing too many hats as a business owner, as our business team and we're starting to trip all over ourselves. So that's the, the it's simple tools and practical concepts in each of the six key components of running a really great business. And when I say six components, that's what EOS framework is made up of. And all the 132 issues that are smacking you in the face every day, they're there within those six key components. They're either there with the vision, right? You're not all aligned in eight questions of where you're going. You know, what are your core values? Where, what is your big ten year target? Right. What's your big hairy audacious goal? Where are we going? What's your, you know, the core values and the core target. And 10, the 10 year target and your marketing strategy and your three year picture and your one year plan. All these questions, we have just eight questions. Are we aligned as a leadership team? So that's the first tool and it's called the Vision Traction Organizer. Just eight questions. You think it's simple, it's not so simple, right? To get out of an entrepreneur's head, who are we, where are we going and how are we going to get there? Right? And then how do we share it with everybody? Right? It can't just lie in an owner's head or in a leadership team's head. If I have a hundred people on my team, how do I get everybody rowing in the same direction? So vision is a key component and then you've got people, right? So the, the key thing, couple of key concepts there that we talk about is the right people, right? Seats popularized by Jim Collins. Right. As far as, now we look at the people analyzer, that's a tool. How do people align to our values? And how do they align to the get it one at capacity on the accountability chart? Meaning what's the role that they're responsible for? Or multiple roles if that's the case. Right, but what are they responsible for and what does good look like? So the second key component is people. And then you've got data, right? So how are we predicting our success? What measures measurables are in place so we can kind of see are we making the right moves to predict the outcomes or are we just looking at our numbers once a year? So we talk about a scorecard, right? With data you've got 52 chances to course correct. 52 chances are you've got 4 or 1. If you're looking at it just quarterly or yearly. And everybody in the company should have enough, right? So if you, and if you're strong on your vision, if you've got the right people in the right seats and you're measuring what you want as outcomes, right. Or as predictors to the outcomes, then all of a sudden your issues smack you in the face. And that's kind of the fourth key component. Where is your issues list and how do you solve problems? If you talk about a problem 10 times, five times, three times, we haven't gotten to the rut, live with it, end it or change it. We've got those three options. So let's stop talking about it, right? There has to be a place where everybody can bring issues forward together to talk about them. So and then there's a process and we call that process IDs, right? What is the issue that's half of solving the problem. Then let's discuss it and then let's move to a next step with solve. So that's the fourth key component. And then you've got process, right? What is a handful of core processes that make your special engine run? What is that? Can you identify that? Can you communicate that? Does everybody know that that's that secret sauce behind the scenes of how does things flow through your organization? Big picture, 2080 rule document, 20% to get 80% results, which remember I mentioned that pendulum earlier. I'm like ah, this just the happy medium of I. We just need the high level. If it. If I've got 100 pages of data details to check off, no human being is going to go through that, right? But having it documented, simplified and followed by all. There you go. Like those are some key tools that we look at there. And last but not least, my favorite verse, like vision without traction is hallucination, right. If I don't execute on this vision if I'm not consistently disciplined. You know, we talk a lot about what's the meeting pulse and what are the rocks, which simply are 90 day goals. So that's really big picture of six key components of your business and simple concepts and practical tools that we use to help. And we take it one step at a time. Right?
Joshua McNary [00:12:39]:
Yeah, well, I was going to say, I mean, that's all great and I can recognize in my own business, in my own history of doing this for 10 plus years, there are various pieces and parts of all that. Right. Some that are in place right now, but the idea, okay, well, gosh, this is a lot of stuff, right. So you have to take it in pieces and parts. Right. One at a time, kind of build on each other.
Michelle Owens [00:12:59]:
I imagine you build on each other. And day one, we start with day one. When clients come to me, they're like, okay, first of all, this isn't easy, right? You have to be super curious and hungry for change and want, you know, a different future. What got us here won't get us there. And so how do we take the steps? And so you have to really commit to a journey of change and you can't change everything overnight. So anybody who wants to snap a finger and all of a sudden it's, you know, beautiful business, that's just not possible. We'll always have issues. It's just different issues next year than it is this year and what's the rhythm for which we address those issues. And so day one, we talk about, you know, what, how, how do you have your meetings? What's the meeting look like? So week one, you're going to go out of my session room and you're going to have a different kind of meeting. It's going to feel a little clunky, but we're going to practice, teach, facilitate, and then go do and come back. So it's that phased learning. But day one, we also look at what's your accountability chart, what's the structure of your, the future of your company and now how are we going to transition to that? It's, we don't walk out of here and then just go move everybody around, right? What's the structure? What are the roles, who's responsible for what and what are gaps? Right? So we look at scorecard day one, what are the, what are the numbers we're going to look at every week? So we, we try to start with foundation. Well, we do start with foundation. So you're going to walk out and see a Little bit of a bump, of a inefficiency gain. And then you'll come back and we'll talk about those eight questions that I talk about. Core values, core focus, 10 year target, all those key questions. And so we'll work through that together. And then we create this quarterly pulse, right? And so each quarter will take a tool. We'll teach you, you'll go do, you'll come back, we learn. So it's usually about a two year journey. And then, yeah, look at the rearview mirror and you're like, wow, how did we function before? Ask any business who's running on EOS once it's cemented. It's kind of like the atomic habits, right? We're just creating these habits, little habits at a time, one step at a time, 90 days at a time. And you'll get where you want to go. You'll get there if you want to go there.
Joshua McNary [00:15:06]:
Right. Well, that's where I want to lead this conversation next. Because we talked about people, we kind of were pointing at least when I was talking about, I was thinking the people like the staff, you know, your organization. But a common theme on this show has been, okay, we got to turn the look at ourselves. And you are alluding to that here in your last comments about. With EOS or any system, any process that you're trying to change, you have to want it enough and then, and then be able to be curious. I don't know if you use that word, but you were talking about the idea of being open towards a new thing. And usually that is driven by, okay, we're up against a wall, we don't know what else to do, either frustration or some other demand, some other opportunity or something that you want to go achieve. So maybe you could talk about that, you know, this challenge of as us as leaders and our willingness to actually go about a transformational change like this or put ourselves in a process like this, like you, like you work in every day and maybe, you know, tell us some stories about, you know, things that have happened or transformations. You've seen. Maybe the person that was not ready to change but now is ready to change.
Michelle Owens [00:16:14]:
Yeah. Oh, gosh, so many stories. But I would say also, okay, so for most businesses, you're trained in your technical field, which is wonderful. So very often small businesses, you know, even with 100, 200 people, maybe you've been in it 10 years, you know, and you've pushed through multiple ceilings and you are successful because a lot of people inherently have that skill. But frankly, most people don't just magically have, you know, how do I have the conversations? How can I have early conversations? So I'm not, you know, dealing with this train wreck of a person that's been with our organization for years and we've tolerated. And so the biggest thing that I see is people. People usually are very hungry to learn because they haven't been. They haven't been in the world where they've been taught that, you know, my daughter's in dental school. I'm like, you know, how many dentists own their own businesses and how much management training do they have? They don't. Right. If you're in the technical field, you don't have the people training. And that is. What did you say? That's 80% of our issues. It's the people issues. Right? And most of the time, those people issues are reflective of our inconsistency as leadership team because we don't have the tools and the discipline in place to have the. Set the expectations on the front end. Okay, here's your role. Here's what good looks like. Here's the, you know, here's our values. And by the way, if you don't align to these values, that's okay. This just isn't your place. Right? But if we're, you know, a lot of people, what I see a lot of is the wrong people sitting in an organization too long. Boy, they're not happy if they don't align to your values and you're not happy. But maybe they're a really good project manager. That's a problem because there's like, they're kind of cancer through the organization. They're poisoning. They're poisoning people, right? Because it's back to the. They don't want to actually be there. So how can we help people flourish? Like, coach them up, coach them over, coach them out. You know, it's all about compassionate accountability, but it's that people. People do want. Usually they don't know they're ready, and not everybody can stick with it. Right. If you've been managing your business in a dictatorship type of way, do as I say, do what you are told, right? And you struggle to get out of the nuts and bolts of the daily business. And you keep flying over as a seagull and crapping all over things, right? You're gonna struggle. So if you. But if you want to elevate your team, you want to think about what's the future, then usually people want to learn. Like, okay, how do I have these conversations? How do I set Expectations on the front end and how do I lead and manage and create a dis. You know, accountability throughout the organization. It's really all about consistency and it, you know, you can't let Aunt Bertha manage your books if she doesn't know how to manage the books. Right. I love Aunt Bertha, but not here. Right. Maybe, maybe she can do customer service. I don't know. I hope. Right. Because there's a lot of family businesses too where you see that.
Joshua McNary [00:19:13]:
Yes. Yeah, that's, that's, that. That's a whole nother realm of, of that's at the world I'm in. But yeah, I've seen that when I've worked with other people, you know, coming into an environment and seeing these dynamics that can make a technology project that I'm working on very difficult. Right. If I can't actually get into those silos or there's some blocks built into it based on, you know, the culture, slash the people involved. But I actually want to hop over back to kind of what you're saying about the people in the wrong seats. You mentioned that a number of times in the context of what you just said. Okay, what if you're the person at the top now? Hopefully the people listening to intentional change are here. They're open minded, they want to change. Okay. But let's just say you're at that spot or maybe you're in a season of life where it's hard to be open. You know, you're the person at the top. You're the one actually needing to make this change. But it's hard. You were talking about the person that just has a hard time, you know, letting go of things. And I've been that person at times. I'm big enough to admit that and I've evolved what I do. But what, what, what happens then? You know, how do you, how do you move from that kind of person to maybe this is before you know, calling someone like you or reading the traction or just setting up some new systems within your own business. You have to do some, some self work first. Like what is that look like? How do you, how have you consulted in that or any. Anything you could share in that world?
Michelle Owens [00:20:34]:
Yeah, I'd say sometimes that's even worse. Like Slingshot 25 comes into place. Right. Because sometimes it's transitional coaching. Right. We have to really be ready. But also I. You don't just shove things down people's throat. Right. It's one step at a time. And as an owner of a company, if you are wanting this change Very often you're. The weight is heavy. You've been burned. Right. You've let something go before, but it wasn't picked up and delivered. But sometimes it wasn't picked up and delivered. You know, I've seen this. I've seen a couple scenarios. I've seen a leadership team come in and none of them wanted to be in those seats. Aha. Okay, well, what are we going to do, guys? You know, what are we going to do together to figure this out? One thing at a time, right? Or I've seen maybe an owner. Well, I've passed it off and I got burnt. Okay, well, let's talk about how we pass things off, because oftentimes you're busy as an owner of a company. Well, you got a lot of fires, you got a lot of people you're leading, and you. It's really hard when you inherently know it. Like, you know the technical skills. And so when you say things, it just seems so obvious, like, go do that. And you think people have as much skill as you do. You want to think that they do, but frankly, they just don't. Right. And so how are we training them up? Are we creating this transition process where people can pick up one thing at a time? So if you have five key areas of responsibility rather than a dump. Right. What's the transition plan where we teach and train? Maybe one thing at a time, and maybe we don't put them up into that leadership role just yet until we provided some skills for them to effectively do a good job. Right. So there's a number of nuances around that, but, boy, I feel for the owner because you. You do know it. You've done it all. You've done all the roles. And by the way, you have such a vested interest. You see the cups in the ground or you see the stuff like, seriously, why can't you see this? Right? And so. But it's heavy for owners, and so it's really fun to help owners just take one thing off at a time, off their plate. And. And then they start to see the weight lifting off of their shoulders, and then they start to build a team around them that they trust. It doesn't happen overnight because, like, I work with a team currently, they didn't have a leadership team. Right. And so, boy, that's building a lot of trust, a lot of skill. There's just so many moving parts involved in that. And now I think of this particular team they've been with about a year and a half, and I actually just went and visited they. They hosted a conference, and his leadership team did all the work. And I was just watching him, like, with such pride, like, wow, these guys really. They've picked it up. They know what they're doing. They've really done a good job. It just really makes my heart happy. Like, oh, and. And his shoulders are a little less saggy, right?
Joshua McNary [00:23:25]:
Like, yes, yes.
Michelle Owens [00:23:27]:
I can't. I don't. I can't do all this.
Joshua McNary [00:23:30]:
Well, I know as a business owner, and I've had a team, half a dozen or so people at one point, small team, now work with a lot of contractors as such, here in 2025. That's how I've been working with people kind of going back to the future, back to when I started my business, how I did it, but of course, still dealing with people, with contractors. Just different. Different relationship. But I can say as a business owner, that idea of that weight that you're speaking of, I mean, again, I've been there in those times, and there's that responsibility component of it, too, because I always took very seriously the responsibility of making sure I was taking care of the people that was working for me and still do work for me, whether they're contractors or WTUS or whatever. So there's that part of it, too. Not just, you know, okay, I got to make sure I can feed my family, but I've got to keep this business going. I want to serve my clients to a high level, and I want to take care of these people, you know, and. And help them grow. Which is also an element of what you're talking about with, like, the leadership team component of the EOS model or other models like this. It's like the idea of you're actually training up the people to take more responsibility over time, which allows you to shed some responsibility so you can go do the things as a leader that you need to do. And this is all being intentional, you know, making intentional change along the way. So all of that really fits with the theme of this show and the theme of all the things you've been talking about here.
Michelle Owens [00:24:49]:
Yeah, I mean, if you're busy, because if you're busy on the manufacturing line or in the service industry doing, right, doing the things that the supervisors or the managers could be doing or doing the things that the, you know, the teams themselves should be doing, then that's distracting you from the big picture, you know, how you got this business started. There are relationships that need to be fostered. There are partnerships that need to be established. There is big stuff that, as A leader of a company you should be doing, but it's a matter of what do you want to do? Because I've had a couple of teams too, where an owner of a company doesn't necessarily want to manage. That's no problem. You can own a company, right. You don't have to manage, but boy, we better get the structure in place to support that and then figure out what's the rhythm of communication. Because you can't be an owner, but then just manage once in a while. That doesn't work. You're either on the team or you're not on the team. How do we transition to that stage? Or, you know, maybe you started an engineering firm, you love to do the engineering work, and all of a sudden you build this big company around you and you're like, ah, I hate that. I don't want to build big relationships. I don't want to go do these things. So, perfect. Then you can be the owner. Let's transition to that, right? And then go do the engineering work. Do what you love. You know, we talk a lot about that with Eos is like, live your best life. It's short enough, right? Do what you love with people that you love, Make a difference, right. Be compensated appropriately, but also have time to pursue other things. And if you're working 24 7, you know, at the end of our lives, I always kind of start with the end in mind. Where do you want to go? What's important for you? It's perfect that you're working and that you love your work, but is that. Is that what you want at the end? And if it is, perfect, but then what's that end? We're all going to end in our businesses whether we choose to or not, right? What's. How do we position our company to be set up for the next generation or the next group of leaders, or, you know, if I want to pivot to another business, I mean, we're all, again, we, we're going to exit the company. It's just a matter of when and whether it's our choice or not.
Joshua McNary [00:26:56]:
And we want to be intentional about that decision as much as possible. I mean, some things obviously slap us in the face in life. We know that just looking at world history in the last five years. But as much as possible, if we're being strategic, then we, even if something does slap us in the face, we're able to adapt to it. Helps us adapt.
Michelle Owens [00:27:13]:
That's right.
Joshua McNary [00:27:13]:
I want to bring up another kind of EOS book. And in the library because you talked about the idea of the delegation, you know, finding people to help you. And you talked about, okay, I'm going to be owner versus be in the business. So the rocket fuel book, which has this concept of the visionary and the integrated. So those two concepts, I looked at that VI component within organization and the leadership there. So it kind of relates to what you're saying with, okay, the engineering firm, the person that loves to do engineering, or me, the technologist that loves to do technology or, you know, whatever organization we're part of. The H Vac company, the guy that started the H Vac company, you know, that loves to do mechanical things. Them being the visionary, having this passion for this area, kind of seeing maybe where this is going. And then you have the actual integrator in the business doing the helping to kind of run the ship, be the general manager, kind of making things sing. I know when I had staffed up, this is kind of around the pandemic period, you know, that was. I was looking at that kind of role in my business before I started to make some other changes. So, so that was, that was something that's really intrigued me and I think could be helpful to our listeners. So can you talk about that a little bit and maybe how you've seen that implemented?
Michelle Owens [00:28:30]:
Yeah, I will say there's very few people who have the same skill to do both well. And so if you want to propel your business to the next level, if you want to scale up, boy, if you can find the yer Yang, I mean, an integrator is the glue that holds that leadership team together, that is in the business doing the special projects, doing the P and L doing. And they've got better be good at doing like managing projects, but also managing people. Sometimes we forget that, right? Strong people skills, strong doer skills. Right. Because we got to keep this engine running. But very often the founder of a company is, is a visionary almost, almost all the time. And the interesting thing is they're visionary because they're willing to take a risk. Right. They see things, they see that big picture. They have those relationships to start this. What they're less good at is that that glue, they don't like accountability, they don't like conflict. They. They have new ideas and so they're pivoting all the time to these shiny pennies. And you know, every 90 days it's like chaos kind of follows them behind. So it is really fun for me to see visionaries trying to play both roles when they can elevate somebody to be their partner. As an integrator, boy, their company's going to go to new heights because now they have somebody there that bounce, you know, they can bounce ideas off of a little bit ahead of the leadership team. Like I got these new crazy ideas. Whoa, hang on. We've got our priorities for the quarter, we've got our plan for the year. And while that's interesting, let's just go, let's kind of just go eyeball this and figure out what, what would it take to get there. And so let's. Maybe you want to do a little, you know, research and development, but we don't want to tangle up the troops with just this nuanced new idea. And so it just creates the clarity or the team to keep moving forward in an orchestrated way. So it will rocket fuel your business forward. So I don't know if that answers your question, but most of the time the visionaries, and that's the first ceiling you're going to hit. And that's your first frustration. Like, ah, I, I hate this. And, and, and it's why sometimes low performers, non performers, people that do not align to your values, why they're staying with your company maybe way longer than they should. Because as much again, compassion and accountability. You love these people, right? They're your, they're your employees. But boy, they might not be the right fit for the kind of company that you have. And who can have those hard conversations. And if it's not you or you can't grow your business and do both roles because they're both full time roles, if you've got a big enough company, then something's getting shortchanged. And most of the time the visionary gets short change because you got to do the work that needs to be done. But you're, you're big picture thinking, looking around the corner. If that's not happening, boy, all of a sudden it's like, you know, if you remember Britannica, right? No. People will always buy encyclopedias at the door. Well, no, that's not true. Not true. And they missed an opportunity, right? So Kodak, I mean companies miss opportunities all the time because you're so busy in it. So hopefully. I don't know if that answers your question or not, Josh.
Joshua McNary [00:31:50]:
Well, it does. It helps. I think the listeners just get that idea, the vi, this concept, these concepts. Because I, I found that very helpful in, in my journey as thinking about like where do, where is, where do I fit here? You know, because I have tendencies for both. I can, I can play both. I mean there's times when hire me to, to, to do the. Be the integrator. And then there's, then there's times that I'm visionary in my own business or even without a client. Sometimes I will kind of step in and help them see something. So, like, I could play both. So, like, for me, that's, that was my journey with. That is okay. When do I need to point out a certain hat? And then I think there's this idea of intention behind both of them. You talked about the, you know, the couple companies that, you know, didn't see what was coming. There's intention there. You know, they were really focused on implementation and making those businesses run and they weren't really thinking about the vision. And then of course, you could do vice versa. You know, you could be thinking about vision and never get anything done. So there's, there's, there's that balance. So, yeah, maybe it's additional people. Maybe it's just putting your effort in the right spot, the right time. And that's, of course, way easier said than done.
Michelle Owens [00:33:00]:
Yeah. I mean, if you can effectively do both, but if you're going to scale, you won't. It's not sustainable. It's just not sustainable. But it's also a matter of what you love. So you're a special case. Right. There are, I see lots of owners that can effectively and frankly, I suspect those are the companies that are pushing through the ceiling. Right. Because if you can't do it, if you can't be the integrator, if you can't hold the team accountable, if there's zero consistency and you have poison running through your company, right. You're going to come to a point where the, you're going to implode, right. And you might have an amazing product or service, but if you have people coming in and out, boy, the customers feel that, right?
Joshua McNary [00:33:40]:
Absolutely.
Michelle Owens [00:33:41]:
There's cost involved in that. And it's a matter of what you want. Right. If you really love, if you've grown to a point where you love to be on the business more, then how do we elevate from both positions into the visionary? And then who's that next integrator? Because frankly, that also has to be a really good relationship because, boy, a lot of integrators pull out their hair with visionaries. They're like, they're all over the place. Well, just, you know, you got to be one to kind of corral them up. Right? But then the corral or the visionary has to be willing and interested to say you're Right, Okay. Yep, yep, yep. And be a united front with the leadership team. Because if you're battling back and forth, boy, that leadership team feels like they're at a ping pong match. Like, ah, I don't know who I'm following. Right. Or the visionary comes around and all of a sudden starts fixing problems that the integrator should be doing. Right. And then all of a sudden there's end runs. Right. And then there's lack of, if there's not ownership of who's leading, then guess who I'm going to go to? The mom or the dad. That gives me the answer that I want.
Joshua McNary [00:34:43]:
Yes.
Michelle Owens [00:34:44]:
And that's inconsistent and ineffective.
Joshua McNary [00:34:46]:
It's about being smart about how this organization is running, you know, whatever your organization, big or small, thinking through the processes, thinking through how things should flow. And again, there's going to be mistakes made when you're, when you're, what you're trying to get this going and such. But you know, whether it be being alert to the, those end arounds or the, whatever the problems are that are amounting in the business, each internally and, or you know, with help of someone like you, I mean, this is not a commercial for you, but you know, this, you know, having help. I mean, I have a business coach, but I, you know, the idea of having additional people to help bounce ideas off of, which I know you do. Excellent for your clients, doing that is so critical to be able to avoid the nightmares that we're kind of alluding to here in this part of the conversation.
Michelle Owens [00:35:32]:
Yeah. And frankly, sometimes coming in as an outsider is helpful. You know, I had a team tell me a couple of weeks ago, they're like, thank you for opening up, opening us up to the opportunity to have that hard conversation. You know, as a leadership team, sometimes you really do have to make hard conversation or hard decisions. Well, not sometimes. Oftentimes. Right. It's. They're hard. And so let's give you that platform to make that happen in a curious way and then kind of lead you to a decision, you know, that you need to make. But I'll help you kind of move forward more, more quickly to say we can't be waffling on this for months at a time. Right. What, which direction do we want to go? What's right for the organization? What's the implication? Right. Is there any unintended consequence? Who do we need to communicate with? Just kind of pulling those questions out. How does that make you feel? Right. And very often I can say that as an outsider coming In. Oh, you know, I saw the look. What. Tell. Tell us more. Right. Well, I'm frustrated because Blah, blah, blah. Right. We, you know, we go through a lot of tissues and a lot of, you know, people are just real and they feel like, you know, I mentioned that case from a couple weeks ago. Thank you for giving us, you know, that platform. Right. To have this conversation that I don't think we would have had without you, which is. That's pretty cool. Right. Just to give them the courage to start having those conversations. That's why it's a journey. Because then pretty soon you start to do that more naturally. Right. And you have a better relationship. It's, you know, just like with your spouse. Right. If you're not talking about it, there's going to be a problem festering up. There's going to be a problem. So how. How do we have those. How do we start to be more comfortable having uncomfortable conversations?
Joshua McNary [00:37:17]:
The integrator role, I think, going back to that just for a moment, I think you can serve in that way internally in the business. You were talking about the visionary kind of bringing the crazy idea down, and the integrator then can maybe deflect that or ask the hard questions like you were talking about. I think that was kind of part of what we talked about earlier that relates to the EOS kind of world specifically. But I also have, in my own practice and technology, you know, I get, I see the looks too, you know, in the room when I'm, when I'm talking to people. And because, because we are, both of us in our practices are working with lots of different businesses. You know, we see the themes. We, we know kind of what's coming and how to, how to head them off. And that's part of the, you know, why having that independent voice can be really valuable. And having independent voices inside your business, maybe with. As an integrator or otherwise, you know, can also help. Help fuel that and then bringing in strategically the right people to help you in technology or in, you know, in systems like, like you're doing.
Michelle Owens [00:38:17]:
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the more comfortable you get doing it, you know that if you have a healthy team, you know, Patrick Lencioni talks about this a lot. Like, you can dominate any industry, Right. And if you have a healthy team, you're thinking about the greater good of the company versus an assault on you. Right. Hey, let's have a conversation. The way that you reacted in this case, you know, created some uncomfortableness with the team. Can we talk through that? And how do we, you know, how do we prevent that from happening next time? And then, you know, if you're coming from a good place with good intention, it's just an easier conversation to have. And you're like, oh, you know, I've been thinking a lot about that. And then that's different than being all ticked off and talking about it at the water cooler. Right. Like, you should have heard what Bob said. We don't want that. Right. We just have a direct conversation.
Joshua McNary [00:39:03]:
It's easier. Easier said than done. But it's also easier to just communicate and not let these things fester in any kind of relationship, you know, and certainly within business. And of course it can. Way easier said than done. But it. In my experience, that's definitely true. And it is true. Even, you know, directly with my clients, you know, and people working with. Sometimes that conversation has to be had with the client, too, so that we can work through things and move forward and make the right decision for their business and for mine and for their customers, et cetera, et cetera. And that creates the rhythm and the. The positive energy necessary to succeed.
Michelle Owens [00:39:39]:
Yeah, it does. And it's. It is to me, really interesting when I don't care what kind of leader you are. I mean, you could actually be more of a autocratic or, you know, we don't. We don't talk about democracy in a business, Right. Because we don't all get a voice. There's 100 people, and you all get a voice at the table. Good God, we'll never make it. Make a decision. Right. But at the end of the day, you want to get better as a leader, and you care. If you care, that's everything. And you can really only care about your team if you've created that foundation of health. Right? Because you might care as an owner or as a leader, but maybe you have different leaders who feel maybe they've been. They've gotten slighted or they missed a promotion opportunity or they're ticked off about something. Right. And they're a little guarded. And they don't think that you care or that you only care about yourself or your team. Right. That health is everything. And then those conversations.
Joshua McNary [00:40:36]:
Well, we've talked about a lot of interesting things through this conversation. I've started kind of with the EOS systems. And of course, that led naturally into talking about people and leadership and how that relates and how we kind of work through some hairy things that, you know, come up as part of those roles and that's those situations. But we are kind of wrapping up here towards the end of our time. So we do have a couple closing questions that we like to ask every visitor to the show here. So let's get into those.
Michelle Owens [00:41:03]:
Okay.
Joshua McNary [00:41:04]:
What's one piece of advice you'd give a business person who is navigating uncertainty and trying to grow?
Michelle Owens [00:41:11]:
One piece of advice. Some of the uncertainty is within our control and some isn't. Right? Control the controllables. What can we control and how are we looking around the corner? Because for the most part, you have a sense of what's happening. But don't get so busy with your day to day that you're not paying attention to that or you're ignoring it or I'll deal with that problem later. Right. So control the controllables.
Joshua McNary [00:41:36]:
Great advice. All right, here's the next one. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received that has stuck with you?
Michelle Owens [00:41:43]:
Well, I will say it's actually from one of my business partners and she's, you're just not that big of a deal. He talks about that a lot and I love that because if you're speaking or if you're with your team, it's actually never about you ever. Right. And so if you think about what's in it for them, right? What do they care about? What do they want? How can I help somebody? That was just, I think I'd say, one of my favorite pieces of advice ever because it just, you know, kind of puts you in a different frame of mind to have better conversations and be the best version of yourself.
Joshua McNary [00:42:23]:
Also, excellent advice. Very true to the concept of serving others, which I think was a theme of our conversation today through all the various topics we covered. So I appreciate that. All right, Michelle, this has been an insightful conversation. Where can people connect with you and learn more about what you do?
Michelle Owens [00:42:41]:
Well, you can connect with me via LinkedIn. Michelle Owens. You can connect with me on email. Michelle Owensosworldwide.com Yep, just start there. How about give me a call, look me up and you'll find me. Google me, you'll find me.
Joshua McNary [00:43:00]:
We'll go ahead and link in those items that you mentioned. Maybe. And maybe your a few of your websites and stuff as well in the show notes so that people could find you that way if. Go ahead and click those links. And again, Michelle, we thank you for being here and sharing your wisdom with the listeners.
Michelle Owens [00:43:13]:
Well, thanks for having me, Josh. You have an awesome day.
Joshua McNary [00:43:17]:
Thanks for listening to intentional change. If today's conversation sparks something within you, I hope you will apply it with purpose in your own business. I'd love to hear how our Intentional Change podcast is helping you make a difference in your business. To drop me a Note, please visit mcnarymarketing.com and click on the contact button in the top right. To contact Sean Fitzgerald, my co host, visit readytolevelup.com and one last thing, don't forget to subscribe and share this show with others in your network. Help us bring intentional change to every growing business. Until next time, I'm Joshua McNary. Bye now.